Logging PTO winch design failures

I made a logging winch out of a Ramsey 9000 lb drum PTO winch and it didn't work out. That winch was not up to the punishment of tractor logging. I tore up 2, and spent nearly $1,000 and countless hours welding, before giving up on this idea.

Problem #1 -- The winch 0.75" drive shaft is too light for this kind of work. They break off in the PTO driveline yoke. The drive shaft is cast into the worm gear, so it's impossible to replace without replacing the worm gear, $275, a couple hours of labor, and a week of down time.
Problem #2 -- This is a slow winch with no power-out. It pulls at less than 1 fps at 1800 RPM. That's mighty slow when rewinding 100' of empty cable. I have a live PTO but no reverse, so I was always slacking off the cable by backing the tractor, just to get the winch clutch out. Sometimes the winching had pulled the tractor back against a tree or stump, trapping it there. Tractor skidding is slow enough already.
Problem #3 -- The frame I made doesn't work for lifting and skidding logs. Using the winch hook for skidding puts too much strain on the winch frame and toplink. It affects steering and traction because it throws the log's weight back on the tractor like a hoist arch would. Dropping the winch to skid logs is too much repeated hassle. Plowing logs through the dirt is land-damaging and slow.

What I would do differently--
1. Use a winch that's meant for heavier work. Recovering a 1,000 lb wheeled Jeep is not the same as yarding a 3,000 lb log uphill through slash and stumps. Make sure it's bidirectional or has a manual driveline clutch. Get a 2-speed if possible.
2. Redesign the frame. This is tricky because you need room for the PTO driveline. The log's weight needs to be on the lift bar, not aft of it. There needs to be a low arch that keeps the load close to the tractor.
3. Build it so there's some protection for the winch and tractor against the log slamming it. Logs like to lunge forward, or get into the rear tires, when skidding downhill.

One nice thing about a winch is having a variable-length cable always with you, even if you use blocks and the drive-away method instead of winching.

The winch model I used is like towtruck-wreckers use, although mine were salvaged out of 1960's military Jeeps. $400 for both winches. Each had something broken, but together they made a working winch and left me parts to repair it. I got them at a 4X4 salvage yard.
This winch has a 3/4" round drive shaft with a keyway. I ordered a special yoke for the PTO driveline, and had a machine shop put the keyway into it. $260 for the driveline, $15 for the keyway. (Expect this to cost more -- machinists usually have a shop minimum of $50.)
I built a 3-point frame using flat and angle steel. The first one wasn't heavy enough and collapsed under the stress. The second one, using angle iron from a truck frame, would withstand a cannon attack. The frame design wraps around the winch, so the winch bolts in from front and back, like it did in the Jeep bumper. This is mandatory for this type of winch. A pair of parallel vertical posts go up to the top link. The main cross member is 3/8" steel angle with ends welded in, and holes in the ends for the pins. The rear cross member has the roller fairlead mounted below it.
Note: I tried hooking up my newer Ramsey 12V 9000 lb winch off my Jeep onto the tractor. I used a 2" receiver-to-3 point hitch adapter ($60) and modified a pair of jumper cables ($35). I burned up one winch motor (&#%!!) and got very frustrated with the slow speed before abandoning that idea within a few days.
Our tractor is a 2008 Kubota L3400, 34HP, 4wd.
Now I'm looking for a "logging blade."

Program Spec to Help Small Forest Owners

This is the program I'd like to see... what could be your role in helping to make it happen?

Small family forests constitute a large portion of forest lands in Washington state. Most of those forests are overstocked and unmanaged, which creates a fire hazard to the homes and businesses on and near those properties. Logging on small wooded properties is barely economically viable, if at all, and lately is a money-losing operation. Profitable commercial thinning is often misaligned with the land owner's goals.

The resources are there to help families manage their forests, but it's not easy to find and coordinate those resources.

This "program" helps us as owners of small forests (1 to 160 acres) to make our land healthy and fire safe. The program brings together existing resources for owners, straightening and shortening the path to a well-managed forest.

Here's what the program would do, and the resources it would connect us with...

Realtors -- Tell us, as we look at forested parcels to buy, that there is a program available to help us get overgrown properties under control without giving up the beauty we seek. Hand us a flyer on the program, or point us to the web site. Suggest that we ask the bank about the program when we apply for a mortgage or construction loan. Follow up with us about it -- someday you'll be selling the neighboring properties.

Banks -- Make us aware of the program when we borrow to buy bare land or to build on it. Give us the option of adding a land-equity line of credit specifically for forest stewardship, at time of purchase. Find government programs that provide low-interest, interest-free, or guaranteed loans for ecology practices. Create affordable financing products to help us cover the portion of work for which we are not reimbursed by government/grant funding.

Insurance companies -- When you do a site visit and see thick trees, tell us about the program and the premiums we can save by doing it. Give us a break on our premiums when we have a stewardship plan and follow through with it under the program.

Government agencies -- Find assistance we qualify for, through existing grant and copay programs such as FLEP and EQIP. Counties can get our neighbors to join the program as a group, placing contiguous land into the program and reducing overhead for operations. NGOs are another potential source of funds and related programs for conservation.

University/community college forestry extensions -- Offer your students credit for a project in which they help the Forester, thus creating an upcoming pool of Foresters for the program, and reducing the cost to the each of us.

Landowners -- Those who have been through a process similar to the program (and eventually those who have completed the program) need a formal process to become supporters by speaking to neighborhood groups, hosting field trips, and taking calls when prospective participants have questions.

Media -- Inform us about the program and about managing our forests, especially the risk of losing our trees (and our homes) to fire. Consult with us and guide us through the steps of the program.

We need these resources:

Money --to defray the cost of managing at a financial loss. That includes help with tax treatment for grants and copays, as well as timber excise tax help.

Consulting foresters -- Locate a forester who knows our region and can (a) write a forest management/stewardship plan specific to our property; (b) perform sample plots and cruises as needed for timber practices; (c) manage any thinning and harvesting operations, including the permit process and taxes.

Biologists -- Put us in touch with someone who can advise us about attracting wildlife, protecting riparian, preventing tree disease and eliminating noxious weeds.

Logging operators -- Match our property with a logger who knows the program, is equipped to work on small properties, and is prepared to abide by our goals for the land and forest.

Landscapers -- Connect us with people who have crews and equipment to prune trees, pile slash, haul away or burn debris, and remove brush.

Are you with the program? Do you have ideas or useful contacts?

Let's start this program in a county and blueprint it for others to replicate. I'm in Chelan County and I'm ready to meet. Leave a comment.

7/29/09 Chris e-mailed:

"WOW, this is a large and serious undertaking, impressive. It’s the sort of thing that Kirk Hanson, with DNR’s SFLO Office, was on his way to accomplishing before he left. It is definitely needed and the toughest part, from my experience, is the maintenance and up-keep after a few years. The only comment I have is work closely with the small landowner groups such as Farm-Forestry, Cooperative Extension, NW Pine Assoc., and maybe SAF (to name a few). They may be able to help with information, updates and up-keep."